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Behaviour and Discipline (Serious Side of Scouting)

Dealing with Death Among Scouts / Scouters

This is a discussion brought up in an archived Scouting Discussion Thread. All views expressed do not necessarily represent the troop's position and stand.

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 20:33:24 CST From: "Settummanque, the blackeagle" <waltoml@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU> Subject: Death.bsa

SUBJ: Dealing with Death Among Scouts/Scouters

[personal background: One of our District's Troops had this problem and after visiting the unit, I posted the question onto the list in a topic called "Insurance".  The topic went onward for a month or so, and I thought that I would attempt to move us onward with this new question.  I received well over 40 personal postings, many of which I deleted in this archive because they were between me and the other persons.  They were all touching, well-expressed and offered the Scoutmaster (and myself) some real-life answers to the questions I posed here.  Two of the personal posters questioned whether or not the situation was true, and I provided the newspaper accounts as well as the name of the Scoutmaster I was writing on behalf (he works at the university where I worked/attended here in Bowling Green, but live in another county). Craig still I feel, has problems dealing with this loss. ]

2 Deep leadership STARTS with everyone being aware of the policy (including *your* Council's interpretation of that policy).  It ENDS with the implementation of the policy, good, bad or otherwise.

However (and I say this ONLY because we've been at this topic for well over a month, and that the vast majority of our questions were answered one way or another during the past week and a half), I would like to move onward with another topic and leave this one behind for a while.

In doing so, I would like to ask the list the following question:

In the course of a Troop meeting, a police officer comes by the Troop meeting place and asks to speak to one of the "leaders in charge". The Senior Patrol Leader goes to speak to the officer and explains that he's the leader of the Troop.  The officer wants to speak with an adult and the Scoutmaster comes over and talks with the policeman.

It seems that earlier that evening, the parents of one of the boys in the Troop killed his wife, dog, and then himself after being depressed for a period of time...(the Scoutmaster and several of the boys noticed this, but said nothing to anyone about it). Now, the Scoutmaster has to tell the boy that his parents are dead.  While the Scoutmaster felt that he dealt with the situation well enough, the boy, now staying with his grandparents in the same town, is still attending Troop meetings and outings but has become a "loner".

The Troop has a upcoming "Dad and Lad" weekend set up, which the Troop's Committee has been working on for several months before this occurance.

The BSA does not have any training dealing with grief or anger or any other emotional situations; several local Councils do have successful programs (not this one!)  Should the BSA invest time and money in training our adults in those aspects?  Should the volunteers in a District work with local agencies to provide that kind of training to its volunteers?

And how would *you* deal with this situation, as the Scoutmaster OR as the Troop Committee Chair (that was the main planner of the this special weekend coming up)?  Should you *cancel* or *do it and plan something special to observe the passing*?

And finally, should the Troop members (youth and adult) attend the funeral of the parents?  Craig (the person I am asking for) has already sent flowers and a nice card to the kid's grandparents on behalf of the Troop.  Should the Troop be exposed to death?

From: Steve Tobin <srtobin@MMM.COM>

Subject: Funeral

We had a situation last spring where one of the new webelos' mother died after a long battle with cancer. We sent a card and flowers as a troop, and his Webelos mate, along with several other scouts, went to the funeral in uniform. His Dad told us later that it meant a lot to him at the time. I'm sure it's an individual call as far as each case is concerned, but from what I have read it is felt that one should attend, and avoid the situation of making the boy feel ignored or an outcast  because of what happened.

From: RYAN KEIL <RYAN.KEIL@m.cc.utah.edu>

To this point, this is a great example of how our youth leaders, and the unit as a whole, should function.

The funeral services are for the living, the surviving.  This is an excellent time for the TROOP to demonstrate its strength of unity.  There is a concern about the negative impact attendance at the funeral may have on the boys.  This must be carefully weighed against the good it will do for the 1) the surviving victim and, 2) those who participate.

If I may illustrate, Scouting does not perform community service in order utilize the skills, etc., we have.  We perform community service in order to develop and grow, to lay foundations and build values in the boys.  The good we do for the community is somewhat secondary, almost even serendipitous to the ultimate goal and aim.  This is another such opportunity.

The "loner" is learning to deal with his grief.  He needs the same support group to which he is already accustomed--not to dwell on the events, but to lend some perspective, to help him realize that there is still some stability in life.  He has lost that which probably is most dear to him. He cannot, nor can the troop, or we as his fellows in scouting, afford to let him lose anything else of value.

I don't have answers to the others aspects you've raised, although I intend to do some research here in my local council.  For this reason I am replying to you, as an obviously very experienced scouter, directly.  You may feel free to pass along any or all of this to the SM and/or list as you see fit.

From: "Lorne A. Dudley" <DUDLEY2@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>

A while back, a female leader and scout lost a husband/father to suicide.  Some of the scouters and scouts attended the funeral in scout uniform.  The family appreciated the appearance of friends. The leader dropped out, but came back two years later. The scout stayed away for a month, but came back, and enjoyed the program and activities.  I feel that the presence of scouting friends at the funeral made it easier for these individuals to return to the program.  For the younger scouts who attended the funeral, it was a serious time, and probably the first close contact with death for many of them.  All part of the growing process, in my opinion.

From: Douglas Flewelling <dougf@GROUSE.UMESVE.MAINE.EDU>

When I was thirteen my father died from a heart attack. One of my best memories is of the boy in my patrol/troop (there were only eight of us) showing up during visiting hours in uniform. It helped me remember that I was part of a group of friends. I am sure that it was a very difficult thing for them to do and perhaps very uncomfortable, but they all performed a good deed that day.

I am sure this boy is going through all kinds of grief at this point and it will take him time to deal with it. What if he was home? Could he have saved his parents? His mother? He most likely needs a trained councelor to deal with much of this, but he certainly needs to know that he still belongs.

With regard to the Dad and Lad weekend, I would still go ahead with it. The boy probably doesn't need the 'guilt' of 'spoiling' the other boys fun piled on top of what he has now. Could a grandfather or uncle attend with him?

As an aside "Dad and Lad" weekend can cause all kinds of complications in today's chowdered-up families. Many boys don't have Dads living with them or even near by. Many boys may have lost fathers before they became Scouts or have Fathers away from home because of military assignments or other reasons. I don't advocate not having these family campouts, but one or two parents of the non-male gender might be invited to attend, as was my Mother.

From: Michael Grier <MDG2@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

I feel that the support of fellow scouts in a time of mourning is extremely important.  Back in 1984, a scout from my troop was killed in a car crash early in the morning; he was returning home from his graduation night.  He was 17, and just graduated from high school.  He was a popular athlete in high school, as well as an Eagle Scout, and was due to take his OA Vigil that very evening (he died early Friday morning.

Well, to make a long story short, nearly 1500 mass cards (the family is catholic) were received at the viewings (which should give you an idea of how many people attended).  One of the things that stays in my memory to this day is how _many_ scouts and scouters were there in uniform.  Not only the execs attended, but boys from the troop and the OA attended, to mourn the passing of one of their brothers.

Most significant...  most touching...  was when the family of the young man asked the scouts to serve as pallbearers for the funeral.  It was very touching to see 8 of the very large group of scouts to participatein this final ceremony, in _full uniform_.

From: "Jesse E. Cross, III" <JCROSS@BEOWULF.MHSL.UAB.EDU>

> The BSA does not have any training dealing with grief or anger or > any other emotional situations; several local Councils do have > successful programs (not this one!)  Should the BSA invest time and > money in training our adults in those aspects?  Should the volunteers > in a District work with local agencies to provide that kind of training > to its volunteers?

*** ABSOLUTELY ***  See comments below.

> And finally, should the Troop members (youth and adult) attend the > funeral of the parents?  Craig (the person I am asking for) has > already sent flowers and a nice card to the kid's grandparents on > behalf of the Troop.  Should the Troop be exposed to death?

*** ABSOLUTELY ***  Lets not forget we're dealing with children who are growing into adults.  Death and it's consequences, especially grief, are natural parts of life, albeit very unpleasant and scary parts.  The whole purpose of scouting is to help these children grow into stable well grounded adults.  The ability to go through the grieving process and deal with a death is a very basic skill that everyone needs to have. Especially at the death of a parent when the other parent may be too grief stricken him/herself to help the child through this process the child will turn to someone he trusts; maybe an aunt or uncle or grandparent, or *maybe* a scoutmaster.

The loss should be recognized and sympathized with by you and by the troop.  Attending the funeral in or out of uniform should be the individual decision of each boy and his parents.  I can only speak for myself, I will be attending the funeral so that I can show by my physical presence that I (1) recognize the severity of the loss this boy has suffered, (2) sympathize with the emotional storm the boy is going through, and (3) pay my last respects to someone whom I probably have met and come to know.

One final thought, such an event can effect the whole troop.  Most assuredly it will affect more than just the son of the deceased parent.  The boys friends will be affected also.

This is a crisis situation.  Our (i.e. adult scouters) ability to handle the situation and help our scouts handle the situation is where the chisel meets the stone.

From: "Ernest R. Spradling, P.E." freemason@AOL.COM

God, that's heavy.  Major angst.  Hope the boy come out of this with his faculties straight - this is a blow where he needs all the support he can get, both moral and professional.  I take it from the commentary that a little time has passed between the death of his family and now

First, was the boy a "loner" before this happened?  If not, then the SM, thru the boys, needs to get him back on track.  If he was already a loner, they STILL need to get him involved, it will take a lot more effort - BUT IT NEEDS TO BE DONE!  This is what is called a crash priority.

IMHBCO, BSA should work with the professionals in social work and psychology/psychiatry, they are ill-equipped to train leaders themselves in this field.  All we need are more out-house shrinks.  That is NOT meant to exclude the boys and leaders from giving appropriate support: the encouraging word, the shoulder to cry on - it just means this is way over the heads of the average leaders.

I am VERY much in favor of the leader informing the boy and his grandparents that help is there, and offer to coordinate with the proper support organizations if they can't handle it themselves.

The boy lost his dad.  If the grandfather (you did say that he lived with grandparent_s_) or an uncle is willing to go with him on this outing, he most definitely should.  Not to make the boy forget, but to make the boy aware that there are people who do give a damn about him (sorry, I feel strongly about this issue).

I do not think the weekend should be cancelled - life does go on, and everyone influenced by this incident needs to be reminded of that.  It can be a healing time for all parties.  And yes, something special needs to be done - even if it is simply a prayer at the worship service during the weekend.

Also on   Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:39:12 -0600, Steve Tobin

<srtobin@MMM.COM> wrote on the same subject:

>We had a situation last spring where one of the new webelos' >mother died

Both Mike's closing paragraphs and Steve's thoughts on the matter brought to mind a bit of my own past:  In the first Troop I was in, I had the dubious distinction of having to help bury two of my brother Scouts who died in two separate car accidents.  In both cases, we went as a Troop, in uniform - the adults didn't make us go, we decided this on our own. We acted as an  Honor Guard, with flags furled, the older boys and leaders as pallbearers, and our bugler played Taps.  We also pitched in to help dig the grave of one, because his parents could not afford a gravedigger.  They were buried in uniform, as I recall.

We needed to show support of each other and the families, and respect  for our fallen comrades - we took care of our own when the going was rough.  The parents understood, and appreciated our support.

My Dad also buried several Scouters in his Scouting days, for similar reasons, at the request of the late Scouters, or their families.

By all means, the boys should be given the option of attending whatever memorial service is held: death is a reality we all must face, and they need to know that when death comes, whether to themselves or to loved ones, that they and their families will have loving support when in a crunch.

We go home now...

From: Lew Bowling <LBOWLING@UKCC.uky.edu>

About a year and a half ago my father died suddenly while my son and I were on a campout with the troop.  My wife had to run me down through the park ranger and the Scoutmaster had to deliver the bad news.  I was upset and my son was devestated, he and my father were very close.  The other adult leaders and the boys were all very supportive, both at this time and in the weeks following, and we appreciated it immensely.  Since my father had lived some distance away they were unable to attend the funeral, but their continued support was very helpful.  I would never suggest avoiding or acting as if something like this hadn't happened.  In addition to the value of letting the boy know he has friends that are concerned and sympathetic, it's a valuable lesson for the other scouts.  Death is a part of life and it's better to learn to deal with it and try to understand it than to try to ignore it.

As to the related topic of the "Dad and Lad" activity, we have enough cases of mother-only families or problem divorces that we now call them "Scout-Parent" activities.  We haven't had a mom on a campout yet, but I expect it will happen very soon.

From: "Joanne C. Vogel" <VOGELJC@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>

  The recent discussion of scouts at funerals really hits home for me.  During the past few months, I have had to attend the funerals of two scout leaders, one GS/Cub leader and one BS leader. Both leaders were in their mid-forties, died after long battles with cancer and remained active leaders until their deaths.  At both funerals there were scout honor guards and in Jim's case, the pallbearers were adult scouters in uniform.  At the end of Mass, Jim's 13-year-old son stood in the back of church surrounded by his fellow scouts who were all in uniform.  What a wonderful sign of support and compassion these boys displayed and what a moving tribute to their leader.

  Elaine was a GS and Cub leader at my parish and all 5 of her children are scouts--one daughter is in my troop.  Her courage and commitment were amazing.  The morning of her funeral, all the scouts in the school were invited to wear their scout uniforms as a tribute.  What a sight!  At her funeral Mass, the troops/dens of her own children formed the honor guard--2nd grade Cubs, 4th grade Webelos, 6th grade Juniors, 7th grade Juniors and 9th grade Seniors.  As you can see, Elaine left a young family.  Since we have fairly large troops, there were scouts standing in all the aisles as the family walked in to church.

  Of course, these were sad occasions and some children and adults had trouble keeping their composure, but I know the families and friends realized the positive impact these two people had on children because of their involvement in scouting.  Children often have a very hard time dealing with death and grief.  Being able to DO something gave many of them a way to cope with their feelings.  I might also add that both scout organizations have continued to provide emotional and financial support to these families as they struggle to put their lives back together.  So, the appearance of the scouts at the funerals was not just for show--our commitment to their families will continue.

Thank you to whomever started this discussion.  I've often wanted to say something about these two people, but I wasn't sure how to start.

From: Olan Watkins <o.watkins@GENIE.GEIS.COM>

   Scouter's Funeral

Some of the recent posts about deaths and funerals of Scouts and Scouters reminds me of a funeral I attended a week ago. It was the funeral of a long time Scouter and Scoutmaster. He had been the Scoutmaster of the same Troop for something like 40 to 45 years and had been a highschool math and science teacher before retirement from teaching. It was perhaps more of an eulogy service rather than a religious service.

The thing that was different about it was it was held at a Scout Camp in the outdoors at the council ring. He and his Troop had scheduled a campout for that week end at that camp and the Troop decided that he would have wanted them to go on with the camp out and have his funeral there as part of the campout, and that is what they did. He had a Troop of close to 50 boys, and the boys all proudly took turns carrying his coffin down the rough trail to and from the council ring, and during the service stood as an honor guard behind his flag draped coffin. The council ring was filled with Scouters and friends. Many many of his past Senior Patrol Leaders got up to speak of experiences and stories about him and all that he had done for them. It was a very moving service.

One of the speakers said something like he had lived almost 72 years, but died at a age of somewhere between 11 and 16 years. He was something of a maverick and adults sometimes had a hard time understanding him, but kids never had any problems at all understanding him.

As I said, he was something of a maverick, and his Troop did not take part in a lot of district or council events. If his boys decided they would rather have a Troop campout rather than attend a district Camporee or Council Scout Show, they went on the Troop campout rather than the other event.

I could not keep from thinking at the funeral, that perhaps he had a much better understanding of how Scouting should be than any of the rest of us. I am not sure how many of the rest of us would have the boys in our units that would be willing to carry us in a coffin down and up a steep trail in order to say their good byes at the place we loved the most, or that our former Scouts from years past would feel the urge to come say good-bye. Yes, he was buried in his Scout uniform.

If any of you knew Jack Boyd Jr, Scoutmaster of Troop 52, Longhorn Council, you know that Scouting lost a true Scouter.

From: Don Blalock via Joyce McKibben <MCKIBBEN@MSUVX2.MEMST.EDU>

Mike,

I would like to thank you for bring up a topic that many of us as youth leaders may face, even if we don't want to think about it.

While I can fully understand a councils extreme reluctance to recommend that a youth recieve counselling or not (liability issue here), I am firmly convinced that a council should keep a list of counselling resources that are available in the area.  I also believe that this needs to be included in the Basic Training for all levels.  Included in this segment of training should be information on what we, as leaders, can do to help a youngster with grief.  It should also include what can be done to help the rest of the unit in dealing with their feelings as a result of a grief situtation.  The Cub Scout Program "Ethics in Action" has a short section that barely touches on this and it could have been done much better (at least we know that National has thought about this).

I had a similar type problem come up in my pack last year.  Last May there was a rather horrific crime in the area.  Three 8 year old Cub Scouts (not in my Pack) were brutally murdered by a group of three teenagers.  In my Pack there were several boys who were very upset by this event.  I and several Den Leaders were fielding  questions  such as, Why did this happen?, Will it happen again?, and Could it happen to me?.  To say the least, we felt totally inadequate and helpless in this situtation.  We also had to say something to several of the parents because they had not noticed that anything was wrong with their sons.

One of the boys was so terrified about the murders that he spent several hours One of the boys was so terrified about the murders that he spent several (oops sorry, I bumped the mouse) crying on my shoulder during a trip we had on Memorial Day weekend. When I asked him why he takled to me about this instead of his parents hhe said that he was afraid that his parents would think that he was being a baby.

Even with the trials in this incident now over this has created problems that we are just now finding.

If there had been some type of training in these types of situtations then we could have done a better job.

One last observation is that we need to make sure that a boy does not feel left out or ostracized if as in the situtation that Mike mentioned a parent commits suicide or is arrested for a crime.

These are just a few observations that I have on this subject, hopefully we can get more commentary.  I know that I could use the advice.

From: RYAN KEIL <RYAN.KEIL@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, Joanne C. Vogel wrote:

>   The recent discussion of scouts at funerals really hits home > for me.  During the past few months, I have had to attend the > funerals of two scout leaders, one GS/Cub leader and one BS leader. [details deleted] >   Thank you to whomever started this discussion.  I've often > wanted to say something about these two people, but I wasn't sure > how to start.

What a wonderful legacy to great people, that when they've "gone home," we still find a need to pass along the good that they've done!

From: RYAN KEIL <RYAN.KEIL@M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, Joyce McKibben wrote:

> Mike,

>

> I would like to thank you for bring up a topic that many of us as youth > leaders may face, even if we don't want to think about it.

I think, in a more ideal world, this would be great.  For our leaders to personally have the skills and insights required to provide the type of assistance an individual having suffered such a traumatic loss needs would be tremendous.  However, one must question whether this is feasible.  How many of our leaders are currently stretched to the max without having to first obtain this type of training (quite extensive training) and, secondly, to stay current in it?  We do well in many areas of BSA to get our leaders Basic Trained and attending RT.

Again, I like the idea, but I don't feel it's practical.  An alternative might be (and some councils already do) maintain a good relationship with local agencies that can provide these services (hopefully, gratis).  A second alternative might be for the council to train a small staff (perhaps one or two DEs) to assist in this area.  They could directly work the surviving family members and the unit both.

BTW, I, too am glad Mike raised this question.   And reading the responses helps me remember just how much of a family we in BSA are.

From: Ian Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>

> I think, in a more ideal world, this would be great.  For our leaders to > personally have the skills and insights required to provide the type of

A lot can be done to help individual kids just by being there and listening. The skills which one would expect to use in a Scoutmaster's Conference can be applied to " first aid counselling " situations - you know, choosing the right setting,  putting the kid at ease, open ended questions ...

Just giving a kid " permission " to cry or vent those negative feelings, and providing a soft shoulder and sympathetic ear is often enough ... you don't <need> to be a trained bereavement counsellor to do that much.

A good few years ago I had a Scout come away to a troop Summer camp. As we were leaving Robert's aunt took me to one side and said that his dad was dying from cancer, and was only expected to last a day or two. They had been warned that the end would be unpleasant, and the adults in the family had decided that the kid would be best off at camp.  He knew his dad was ill, and may well have suspected the truth.  For most of the week I dreaded the visit from the Camp Warded ( = Ranger ) for fear that the expected telephone message had come and I would have to break the news to Robert. In the event the family waited until we got home , and his aunt broke the news.  However, I wonder how I would have told that kid if I had been asked to ...

As you can imagine, knowing his dad was very ill, Robert ( aged eleven and on his first long camp)  was pretty " mopey " from time to time, and it got to the point where the other patrol members were complaining that he was going off into the woods and not doing his share of the chores.  I took a chance and spoke to the P/L  ( a lad of about fourteen )  and told him, in confidence, what the situation was. To his credit the P/L not only stopped the other kids picking on Robert, he spent some extra time with him and helped him along.

                                 -------

A few years later we had a seventeen year-old Venture Scout , a former member of my Air Scout Troop , killed in a caving acident. He was training to be a Caving Instructor for our Scout County. It appears that several members of the party had gone through a tunnel when a rock fell a few inches and hit Atilla on the chest. Despite attempts at resuscitation on scene by the leaders and the best efforts of the Cave Rescue Team it appears that he died within a minute or two of the accident. The Police broke the news to the lad's family, and the District Commissioner went round to see them as soon as the news reached the district.  At our troop meeting the next week we spent some time thinking about Atilla and ended with prayers.  Air Scouts and Venture Scouts, together with district and county representatives and members of the County Scout Caving Team,  formed an Honour Guard at the requiem mass, and a wreath in the shape of a World Scout Badge was displayed in the church.

I went to see Atilla's mother a few days after the service. The last time I had been in their house was a couple of years earlier, when Atilla had been working on his Chief Scout's Challenge expedition. She said that he had just finished his exams and had been looking forward to the caving trip. Having not long turned seventeen this was to be his last assessment for his Assistant Caving Instructor certification.

                               --------

Most of the time Scouting is fun and adventure, and a good time is had by all. But as Leaders we never know when we are going to have to deal with the darker side of life and death.  As Scouters we volunteer to look after other people's kids , and sometimes that can be a very heavy responsibility to shoulder.  Perhaps it helps from time to time to reflect on these issues so that we can " be prepared " when something happens in our unit.

" For everything there is a season, and a time for every    purpose under Heaven :    a time to be born and a time to die ;    a time to weep, and a time to laugh ;    a time to mourn and a time to dance ... "    {  Ecclesiastes  3 : 1-3 }

From: Sarah Jones <Sarah.Jones@SAWASDI.APANA.ORG.AU>

G'day all,

one this that has struck me about this topic is that we have all opened apart of ourselfs that we dont always get a chance to talk about. Yes, I to have had to attend funerals of both Scouting and Guiding members. Of the 5 funerals I have attended, 3 were active in Scouting, one in Guiding. of these four, 3 were suicides. And they were all under 25.

None of them were easy to deal with. And as they were all my own age, it really hits home that death doesnt just happen to your grandparents or parents friends eaither.

But, of them all, it is the ones that involved suicde that were the hardest to deal with. It is in so many ways, still a forbidden subject. I found it hard enough to deal with what I was going through, but then to hve to explain to a gril Guide troop why their leader killed hereself is not easy eaither.

It is this last one that springs to mind in this thread that we are talking about. It is by far the one that hurt the most at the time. It still does to a point, but not as bad as it did. Time has helped a great deal.

I am a Rover and had known Robin since we were 4 and at Kindy togeather. She was a much loved and respected Guide Leader here. In fact, I know that she is a true leader. One in a million. And every girl will miss her.

Now onto my point. What struck me was that the Girl Guides in our state (and I am asuming Nation wide here as well) have in their districts and regions what are called Support staff. It seems that these are the very people that organized group counselling for the Troop and other leader. They also provided a second leader to fill in untill the troop found a replacement. Not only that, but they also provided a counceller for the girls. She is a Uniformed Leader who it seems does this. I do not know all the details, but I know she was with the troop at weekly meetings untill everyone had gotten over it enough for her to step back and leave. It was at troop meetings that most of the girls were having trouble. They kept expecting Robin to be there, or at least walk in at any minuate. The logical thing for many people would have been to change venues. They as a troop decided to stay. The place they meet holds memories for all of them. And they wanted to stay. They said if they left, they would be leaving Robin alone and they didn't want that. As far as I am aware, they still meet there.

Well, I guess that this is something that I have been thinking a lot the last few days. Not just the death of fellow Scouting and Guiding Friends. But also the fact that curr3ently in my English class we are covering death at the moment. I need another outlet. I am still to analsy the poems about death and dying and all. I think I just might shoot it all from with in. From: Jim Ficklin <jficklin@NMSU.EDU>

On Fri, 29 Apr 1994, Randy wrote:

> Hi, >

> I have a problem that I am having a very tough time dealling > Yesterday I got a call from my 12 year old daughter after she got > home from school.  She asked me if I had heard about the death of a > young man......when I heard the name, I was stunned into disbelief. (middle part deleted to save bandwidth) > Thanx for listening....maybe I just needed to get this off my chest, > but I am having a really hard time dealing with Alan's death.

Randy, my heart goes out to you.  It sounds like the passing of this young man was sudden and unexpected.  I surely can understand how this could be very hard to deal with.  The compassionate actions you are taking can only help.  I suspect that someone so connected with scouting as you also believe in a supreme being.  Now is a good time to use that belief and seek the comfort and understanding you need through your faith.  If prayer is part of your particular faith, don't hesitate to use it.

As you continue to reach out to the boy's family and friends the acts of service will do as much as anything can to bring you peace.  Time, of course, will help too.  Don't feel like you are alone, it sounds like Alan touched many lives.  You will all have to support each other and share with each other the love you have because of Alan having touched your lives.  This loving and sharing will also help ease the pain you all feel. Don't feel like you necessarily have to "deal with" this.  The strong feelings you have are just a sign of how much you care... consider this a good sign, and it will be easier to let it gracefully take its course.

Thanks for feeling you could share this with us all.  It makes us feel good that you felt you could count on the youth leaders in this list to understand.  I'm sure we will all remember you in our own prayers and thoughts.

From: "Brian L. Davis" <brian@COR.GOV>

Subject: Re: I have a problem......

Randy,

        My sincerest condolences.  Yours is a position we all fear and dread. May God help you through this time, and cherish this young man.

From: Randy <RANDY@SHOCKER.EE.TWSU.EDU>

Fellow Scouters,

On Friday I wrote to all of you expressing my grief and sorrow over the passing of you young man affiliated with my pack as a Den Chief. Today Allan Burwell was laid to rest in his Scout uniform, a tribute to something he loved dearly according to his mother.  I, along with Allan's scoutmaster, was given the honor of participating in the funeral ceremony by being a pall bearer.  We both wore our unifornms and many other uniforms were scattered through the crowd gathered to pay respect to Allan and his family.  Our council Scout Executive and our former District Director were present, as was our District Commissioner and my Unit Commisioner.  Several of the Cubs form my pack and the Scouts from Allan's troop were present, as were a host of his classmates and teachers.  It was obvious that Allen and his family are wll liked an respected.

Thank you all for the words and thoughts you have posted.  It has meant alot to me to have the support that you have shown.

From: Susan Ganther <susan@GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>

A discussion of this issue was raised at a local RT recently because a Scout became critically ill while on a camping trip and later died in the hospital from an anurism (even had he been in the hospital when it happened, he still would have died). What the unit leaders learned from the experience is that there is a serious lack of resources for dealing with the death of a unit member in the Scouting literature.

We really need to set something up locally to make sure our councils are prepared to help unit leaders with locating people who can provide counselling for the surviving unit members. National could help us out with information about funeral ettiquette and members in uniform, and policy information on posthumous awards of in-progress badges or ranks. There are probably a lot of questions that will need to be answered and trying to track down answers and deal with grief, your own and that of your Scouts, at the same time is a heavy load to bear.

From: Bill Hunter <hunteb@SMTPGATE.LDS-AZ.LORAL.COM>

We really need to set something up locally to make sure our councils are prepared to help unit leaders with locating people who can provide counselling for the surviving unit members.

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I am a Scoutmaster and Schoolboard member.  For the information of the net:

When a child dies in a school, most administrators take advantage of professonal counseling groups.  Some of these are volunteers, so there is no cost involved.  A trained person will sit down the each class group and discuss feelings.  It is surprising how some kids will feel such guilt.  usually because they mistreated the student prior to the death.

Recommend you call your local school principal for guidance under such circumstances.  Remember, the death in your troop is also a death in the local school.  They school may already be dealing with the issues.

From: Jeff Menaker <wastelander@PSU.EDU>

Sounds like you've pretty much got things set up.  Here's a few things you might want to do.  At one of your meetings, hold a discussion on death.  Encourage the scouts to talk about their fears and anything they've heard about it.

Also, i don't think anyone should be forced to attend the funeral.  Make it optional but strongly encourage everyone to attend. g'luck

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